CE: Today is Tuesday, August 2, 1983. Continuing the Oral History project of the Ann T. Kent California Room, once again Mrs. Jordan Martinelli and I are on the road. We have the privilege this afternoon of being in a beautiful setting, high up on Inverness Ridge, and we are at the residence of Peter S. Behr, 360 Drakesview Drive, Inverness, California. Peter Behr is a lawyer, an active conservationist who has given twenty years of his life to public service starting at age forty one. For two years, 1954 to 1956, he was on the Mill Valley Planning Commission, followed by four years on the Mill Valley City Council; part of the time serving as mayor. For seven years, 1962 to 1969, he served Marin County as a member of the Board of Supervisors. There was a break in his political career, and it was resumed 1970 through 1978 when Peter served eight years as a member of the California State Senate: retiring from public service December 3, 1978. Peter Behr has been the driving force behind the major conservation legislation enacted locally and state wide and is still an ardent supporter of environmental causes. It is said he is an atypical Republican, much like Lincoln in that he is a humanitarian who has compassion for the little guy. He has been called "Mr. Integrity of local politics" and truly believes that individual citizens can make a difference in shaping their community. And this is done by using tools available, which are voting, letter writing, running for office, etc. To find out more of Peter Behr's philosophical outlook is what brings us to Inverness Ridge today. Peter, it is indeed a pleasure to be here.

PB: Thank you - - my pleasure.

CE: Sitting here in this lovely office - study of yours, high on this ridge I can see you have a surrounding of beauty. Is this what brought you originally to Marin County?

PB: Well, in part, yes. We came out, Sally and I, after the second world war, and it was a first time in the state for either of us and we knew two persons in the entire state, neither of whom we had seen for many years. One an Aunt who lived on the Mojave Desert and the second a first cousin who lived in Walnut Creek, or actually Alamo. After regaining my health on the desert we came north to visit her, and she graciously offered to build a house on her property for us to rent, and we jumped at the opportunity because housing was unprocurable at that time. And then I went into San Francisco because I needed a job and we decided to move out here. After three years of commuting from Alamo in those days, it was simply too difficult a commute and we began to look at Marin County. First because we had been over here and loved it, and secondly because it would be an easy commute. After about a year of looking around and weekly trips from Alamo to the County, Roy Farrington Jones found us a home in Mill Valley on Del Casa Drive which we pounced upon and moved and stayed in until our children were grown. Actually until I entered the senate. Many, Many years there and it was wonderful.

CE: Well you're and Easterner by birth I understand?

PB: I was born and raised in New York City and stayed there until the second World War--

CE: In Manhattan ?

PB: In Manhattan, that's correct. Actually up and down East Seventy Second Street in apartments.

CE: You were educated at Yale, is that true ?

PB: I went to Yale - -

CE: Just as all the Kent boys did.

PB: Yes, I went to Yale and graduated in the class of '37 along with my brother, my elder brother. My father had gone to Yale in 1906 along with his brother and I had a whole parcel of relatives on both sides of the family who have gone to Yale. And my son went through Yale too.

CE: You come from a family of attorneys ?

PB: My father was an attorney although he only practiced briefly. He was an investment banker.

CE: I see. Well, then you're in Marin and each year that goes by I guess you love it more.

PB: I think so. I think it's the kind of place which has endless vistas and one keeps moving down different ones as long as you stay.

CE: As an easterner first approaching California did it seem quite wild and natural to you and a little untamed thirty years ago ?

PB: I suppose that's true too, unfortunately. In any event, yes, and the spaces seemed vast compared to the east, particularly New England which we revisited a few years ago, and it seemed like just wood lots next to one another throughout - - almost from Maine down to Connecticut. But, yes, it took a while to get used to it, particularly the desert. But we came to love it as people love the sea and there is a similarity.

CE: You're interested in the sea I think too. You go boating here at Tomales?

PB: To some extent I go or my friends take me out and go fishing. I was at sea for almost five years in the Second World War - - as a deck officer.

CE: In the Navy ?

PB: I got my commission as an ensign in 1937, R.O.T.C. - -

CE: Good, good.

PB: And I served on a number of different ships.

CE: In the Atlantic or Pacific area ?

PB: Both. Yes we went out to the Pacific on a destroyer escort and I stayed on her for about a year and a half or so, and then was transferred as Executive Officer of an old repair ship called the Prometheus, the AR3, which had been laid down as a coal collier in 1908. And had been converted in the First World War to a repair ship, mothballed, then refitted and she was in the Pacific at the time of Pearl Harbor and never came back during the war. She - -I left her in Hong Kong after the war. She was a big old bucket of bolts. We carried a crew of - - -

CE: Sure, those AR's did. They were floating workshops, repair ships, you know.

PB: We had eight hundred men and fifty two officers - -

CE: Shops, they had regular shops aboard with lathes - -

PB: It was great duty. She wasn't broken up into small pieces - -

CE: You know, speaking of the Navy, I was distressed to hear on the news this morning that the Coral Sea, which was a carrier berthed in Alameda for the last eight years, became San Francisco sort of adopted her, you know. She's now in the Mediterranean lying off Libya with the Eisenhower participating whatever. Our country is making some gesture to support Chad against Kadolfi. And I thought, there is that carrier way over there - - in a way the concept of Naval life has changed hasn't it? And its impact into the balance and strategies of the way they're talking about international affairs and ---

PB: I think it has changed. My son took two years, two and a half years, after he graduated as an officer on a destroyer and also a leader [?] guided missile ship. Which didn't exist, of course, in the second World War. And yes, the life has changed but not at sea. The Navy - -

CE: You know why ? There is still discipline there.

PB: Sure.

CE: Even though when Admiral Zumwalt became CNO in 1970, I remember we started getting those [__?__] all the time. He was selected from many many numbers and reached below by whoever makes that determination and they were having problems with discipline in the service. And he allowed suddenly beer in the barracks, he allowed beards, he allowed that you could do anything - - "If you have a problem sailor here's my number, call me on the hot line in Washington and you have an ___?___." He tried to do away with the discipline and every chief in the Navy was ready to quit. You've just eroded the whole chain of command. And it took ten years before the Navy realized they made a mistake in that action.

PB: Well they did. No question about it.

CE: Well, let's see now, let's move on. You know in reading your print just in the archives of the California Room is just so much that is available and time don't permit it. There's so many caused and struggles that you've been involved in and as all of them have been annotated in the public record, I don't particularly expect you to go through all of that today, but I was noticing some things that struck me, and I want to just list a few. I know you've been deeply involved in BCDC [Bay Conservation and Development Commission] and Save the Bay. I'd like to know more about the Point Reyes National Seashore story. I have interviewed Boyd Stewart and his version of that. I know you've been involved in the Wild Rivers Bill, Senate bill 107, and you're very interested in the Tu--?--- Bill. You're called Mr. Marin Conservation League. You were instrumental in getting the seven million dollar bond issue to build the second wing at the Civic Center. That Vera Schultz as I understand it was so - - hard working to achieve the first building. You were involved in seeing that Marincello didn't get built. Well, all of these, and there are some I'm eliminating I know but - - Would you care to comment on some of these causes, and particularly can you look back and -- and what causes have given you personal pride and pleasure and why or --- How would you like to handle this ?

PB: Well, let's take the zoning of all public lands open area in Marin County.

CE: All right, good.

PB: This pleasured me largely because at the time there was constant threat of developing the eighteen thousand acres more or less of the Marin Municipal Water District land. These took the form of harvest selective timbering, restoring the hotel at the top, putting a ___?___ railway up what we ___?___ the back of the mountain. And we felt one of the --- one day or another one of these meetings would be successful, the public would not be alerted. So in any event, we introduced an ordinance to make all public lands of all jurisdiction, except for the cities, of course, open area with a few minor exceptions such as corporation yards and office buildings. And this---The North Marin Water District came in like a lamb and we got their five thousand acres very quickly. But owing to a technicality at the Planning Commission level, Marin Municipal Water District managed to hold up that ordinance for two years. And finally we broke it loose and - - I suppose in the end it was the triumph of persistence or the skill. But its never been challenged and I hope it won't be. And the purpose was, quite obviously, namely that in order to change the zoning and give land an actual value for sale one had to go through the Planning Commission at the County level and then the Board of Supervisors which would permit sufficient time to marshal our position if it were a poor plan.

CE: Was this achieved then under the aegis of the Marin Conservation League mainly ?

PB: No. I was on the Board then.

CE: You were on the Board of Supervisors at that time ?

PB: That's correct, yes. Then with the Save our Seashore campaign, what happened actually was that - - Katherine Johnson, Mrs. Stuart Johnson Jr., was the widow of Clint Miller and she married and attorney in Washington. And he was a wonderful man because she had a dream of seeing the seashore completed in honor of Clem and he instantly cooperated with her. So she cane out - - -

CE: That was a good marriage.

PB: It was excellent and still is. I attended Clem's funeral which was very sad. Five little girls - -all shocked and --- and it was a full military funeral very near the present headquarters, and it was a very rainy day, and, I think, a very solemn tragic occasion. Regardless, she came out and we talked together. She was willing to get enough money to pay for a secretary, and so we got Betty Lunden. And then the question was what to do. And so we put together a number of persons who always worked in harmony, Margaret Azevedo and Jean Bernard and Libby Gatov and Kay Gilman and Hal Gregg (who since died) and Bunny Lucheta, (whom I've had a long relationship with in terms of politics) Aileen McClain and Ed Ryken, Lothar Salin, and Dr. Upton(whom I was devoted to, who has passed away) and, of course, Gracie Wellman. And we sat down and decided that we'd have to do something about the enormous amount of acreage still to be acquired - -

CE: Well up to that point, interrupting for a moment, Peter, had the decision come down from then President Kennedy that he wanted to have this land available? Sort of a Pacific Coast counterpart of the National Seashore back east?

PB: Well that may be but this was during Nixon's time, in September of 1969. And what happened was that Nixon had closed down the Land and Water Conservation Fund and would not permit any funding. And in addition - -

CE: So you were running out of money to buy these private ranches ?

PB: There was no money.

CE: No money !!

PB: No money at all. And there were a large number of bills in Congress, all of them stalled because there was no money.

CE: Well Peter, correct me if I'm wrong; didn't the GGNRA [Golden Gate National Recreation Area] come out also during Nixon's administration ?

PB: Yes, but that came sometime afterwards, indeed it did. And that's an interesting story.

CE: OK. All right.

PB: But out of the total sixty thousand acres there were thirty thousand nine hundred forty acres in private ownership, and - -

CE: Still ?

PB: Still. And the problem was that it was an unmanageable patchwork quilt of public ownerships - -

CE: Like a ranch here and a ranch there ?

PB: And no access to a large number of parcels which had been purchased.

CE: Was the general attitude of the ranchers at that time ameliorated to the extent that they were willing to sell if they got their money or were they still resisting?

PB: Well, there was some resistance, but I think it had lessened considerably by then. The actual purpose of this effort, which was not disclosed, even to the members of the executive committee, was to get Senator George Murphy, who was then running against Tunney, to go to Nixon, who was a close friend of his, land tell him that this was an unnecessary move if he (Murphy) was to be returned to office. And we had to break the Land and Water Conservation Fund wide open because it wasn't simply the obtaining of thirty eight million dollars to acquire these lands since you'd never get the votes in Congress because there was the Cape Cod Seashore, the Los Padres National Seashore, and little bits and pieces of beautiful land all over the country stalled for lack of funds. So in the end we delivered in about six weeks petitions bearing five hundred thousand signatures to Mr. Nixon presented by Congressman Clausen. And in addition we did a great deal of additional lobbying. We took ten thousand copies of the special edition of the Pacific Sun, which ran to 57 pages and was covered with lovely photographs, and told the whole story in depth. And we had very little money, so we - - I had a very close friend, he was an executive in an airline, and we managed to send a number of those back "lost freight" to Washington. And Katherine Johnson picked them up and we got them in the hands of just about every legislator and all through the White House, and that was a stroke. We also did a number of other things. We had a large exposure on television, a very large exposure on radio. There was the Island in Time which the Sierra Club produced - -

CE: Oh yes, that was a beautiful thing.

PB: And we bought enough copies to give one to every Congressman. We had photographs, colored photographs by Pirkle Jones who was a famous photographer. And we took Boyd Stewart's Morgan horses and had a colored photograph of Pirkle's of the horses, and framed it and presented it to Senator Murphy who put it on his wall. Then we hand delivered an eight foot map with concentric circles out a hundred miles from the heart of the seashore to prove to him that there were five million of his constituents who lived within a hundred miles of the seashore. Then we broke the famous brass plate out of the Bancroft Library, which was famous then because - -

CE: Now it's infamous.

PB: Now it's infamous. We sent replicas of it to Governor Reagan and Secretary Hickle, and we put it on exhibit at the De Young and Oakland museums. And we had Alioto come to visit the show and - -

CE: You mean the Raider's Alioto ?

PB: Yes. And we also had the mayor of Oakland come. And we had him proclaim "Save Our Seashore Week". This is the original proclamation - -

CE: Oh, let me see that.

PB: Good old Joe.

CE: Joe Alioto.

PB: Then we managed to get resolutions from all the bay area counties, from the legislature and just about everybody else. We had Diane Wayburn, who was Ed's young daughter, having an ocean beach cleanup to prove that teenagers cared also about beaches and would keep them clean. And that was a fun media event. t money. And then I said to him "Since you're a graduate of Coro are you able to go back and talk to the interns?" He said "Certainly, I have access." I said "You go back there and you tell them what a great thing this is and you look around and come back and tell me who's the pick of the litter." So he came back. He said "There's one fellow who's just obviously for this, shoulders above everyone, named Bill Kahrl." And later Bill came with me as Administrative Assistant in Sacramento. And he's just finished a book on the Owens Valley which received rave reviews. Very brilliant. And so we got him. And then Hughey Johnson called me and said he had a girl named Francho Walder, and he said "I think she'd come with you." So we got ahold of Francho. Well, Francho was like a wild horse at that time who had never been tamed - -

CE: Just what you needed!!

PB: That's just what I needed. So the three of them came and they wanted instructions. And I said to them "Well now, look, we're getting petitions signed and I want you to fan out to the high schools, the community colleges, the universities and get signatures." I said "If you don't know how to do it, I can't tell you because this is your - - " Well, this was the period of time that everybody was anxious to help, and so they got probably between the three of them, two hundred thousand signatures. Then we had, of course, a letter writing campaign and some other things. But, it was fun. And we had to get some advance money as you always do because - - -

CE: Anybody give you a little gift ?

PB: Nobody gave us a gift to start with and then money started to trickle in and it came in very small amounts from very little known organizations. And I had a tape about five feet long when we finally filed. And most of the contributions were in the order of ten dollars, five dollars, twenty five dollars and so forth. But they all added up in the end to a fairly sizable sum of money. So we needed some money so I got an eight thousand dollar note signed by eight of us at six percent interest with the Bank of America. And we went through the French American Branch because I had a - - -

CE: Contact there, huh?

PB: A partner who was very close to the manager. And I signed it of course, and Pop Livermore, Becky Watkin, Bill Waste, Byron Leydecker - - Ben Farlotti and my [?] Palmer York Junior, who is - - and Charlotte Ruznik, who works for us and who was right in there punching all the time. She's a very dear and close friend of ours. Ad so she said "Look, I've got a savings account. I want to sign that note." And we knew darn well she couldn't have a thousand dollars in that savings account, but she signed it and I was pleased about it.

CE: What were you going to use the money for?

PB: Well, we needed it first of all to get these ten thousand overruns of the Pacific Sun. We also needed it because I had thought there was a poster, you know the wonderful Sierra Club posters for Island in Time? But they didn't have poster for that because it was before their poster program had begun. So I said to them "Let's get a poster." Well, they said "We've got no money budgeted for it." Well I said "Let's find the minimum order and we'll go halves." And that's what we did. The minimum order was 3,000; we got 1,600 posters, and we sold those damn posters. We made a lot of money from those posters. We sold them for a dollar a piece, and I think they cost us twenty five cents or so. So that was another way of getting some money, but we needed that - -

CE: To keep this going.

PB: To keep this going. And the radio time, you know, was quite excessive. Oh, and another story - - I don't want to use up all my time here, but - - Stuart Udall was coming to dedicate the Oakland museum - -

CE: I didn't know that.

PB: Yes. And I didn't know Mr. Udall, but I wanted him on our advisory board. So I went there with a letter from him to me all typed up and an envelope, and I found out who was driving him to the airport. And I said to this young man "Look, you stick this in his pocket just before he gets aboard." And so he was kind enough to put it on his own letterhead, and I got him on the advisory board, so that gave me a little substance. And so things began to move and - - we finally - - well, we had a lot of help form everybody. But we finally worked it out. And that was the campaign outline; we declared ourselves from the outset nonpartisan and that I think was ___?___ .

CE: SOS. Save Our seashore. That was your idea ?

PB: Yes. We stole that from Sausalito. They have Save Our Shoreline as an SOS. And we stole it and felt better about the theft when we learned they in turn had stolen it from some other organization that was not as popular. The petition - - we decided to go and address the petition to the United States and we did. And all we said was this: "Dear Mr. President, Please help us save Point Reyes from the bulldozers. Only you can preserve this magnificent seashore for all generations of Americans. It's now or never." [end of side 1 of tape 1]

CE: Peter, then how long did it take once he received this great epistle for - - I mean what are the mechanics for getting it through?

PB: The mechanics are simple. The need was simply to have the president release the Land and Water Conservation Fund because Wayne Aspenall, who was the long time chairman of the House Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, had canceled all hearings on the Point Reyes bill on the basis that until the president acted nothing could happen.

CE: So everything was in a limbo status, wasn't it? Was this applicable to any other properties?

PB: It was applicable to all - -

CE: All properties across the nation.

PB: This is the case today with President Reagan although that Land and Water Conservation Fund now runs close to three billion dollars, and all of it again has been locked up for no proper purpose. But after he received those signatures it was maybe a matter - -

CE: How did the word come to you? Who gave you the word?

PB: I frankly don't remember. We never got any direct notice from anybody. I guess we read it in the paper. You know, it was a fine time.

CE: Did you have a celebration?

PB: Yes, we did. I remember that much more distinctly. But it was a nice campaign, and I think it helped.

CE: So this is what you mean when citizens, individual citizens, working together, can make a difference, right?

PB: Yes. Now there are times during campaigns of this sort where you get enormous discouragement. For example, I read in the IJ [Independent Journal] one evening that Don Clausen had said that we should call off this because it was annoying Wayne Aspenall, and he was a very testy person and this might do more harm than good.

CE: Like a burr under the saddle?

PB: And the next morning, I mean, we had to rally the troops in a very distinct way because they figured Clausen knew, which of course he didn't. Oh, in addition we had an office and so - - You mentioned what we spent the money for; we had a telephone, second hand furniture we rented. We got the office practically free. But - -

CE: How long a period of time was this effort would you say?

PB: About six weeks.

CE: That brief a time you did it?

PB: That's right.

CE: Got those signatures, got that petition?

PB: That's right. We really - -

CE: That's an extraordinary achievement.

PB: Well it was. It was fun - - because it works - - and - -

CE: Well everything we attempt doesn't work.

PB: No it doesn't - - and that's another point that you - -

CE: You must have had some failures along the way?

PB: I've had many and - -

CE: By the way, is that Tule Elk bill resolved?

PB: Well the Tule Elk bill became law.

CE: Did it become law?

PB: Yes and - -

CE: Could you go into that a bit because we're right in the country where the elk used to roam.

PB: Sure. That's right. Beula Edminston had the committee to preserve the Tule elk, and she came to me - - She was a driving woman and this was her single bull's eye. That was the only target, this bull's eye. And before the gold rush the Tule elk, which is unique to California, the smallest elk. There were more than a half a million roaming the valley. It was the dominant animal on the landscape. But it was shot down to virtual extinction before the gold rush, even as the buffalo had been. And so finally the few remaining were sent down to Owens Valley where they were exotics. And every time the herd rose to 250 they draw lots and knock off 50 of them, which was hardly sport. I mean they went out and shot them like cattle. And so Beula was on the right track. And so what we did was to have a bill that required that they be transplanted or relocated is a better word, in all areas where they had one time been indigenous or such areas that could be found. And if they couldn't find any, the Department of Fish and Game was supposed to save - - or file a report with the Legislature to that effect.

CE: Well, is it not true, going back to Drake's visit here, they were prevalent in the Point Reyes plateau out there?

PB: Absolutely - -and in fact that has to be proved because you can't put anything other than indigenous animals in any seashore or national park. You can't put an exotic in. There is an early book that was shown to me concerning a naval officer who came out to the Point Reyes Seashore and engaged in a hunt for the Tule elk a long, long time ago, and I think - - is it Betty Helen Thomas - - the library ___?___ could locate that book, because that was proof. And, of course, they have some bones and - - -Another thing too I tried talking about, failures, I've tried and have tried for many, many years to reintroduce the wild turkey into the Point Reyes National Seashore.

CE: That was an indigenous bird?

PB: The National Park Service denied it, but we found out through Berkeley that in fact it was indigenous to the seashore, and they've been promising to put some wild turkey back, but they haven't. Although they're doing exceedingly well in Sonoma and multiplying quite fast.

CE: Isn't that the bird that Benjamin Franklin wanted to be the national bird?

PB: Oh yes.

CE: Noble turkey.

PB: Yes, yes, the wild turkey is a noble animal.

CE: Then, Peter, the bill was passed and now do we have Tule elk on the Point Reyes National Seashore?

PB: Yes, we do. The Tule elk are at the most northerly part of the seashore which was known as Pieree Point Ranch. And they built a very large fence across this narrow peninsula and put the Tule elk out there.

CE: Way out there?

PB: Yes, that's correct, out there. And they're doing very well now.

CE: Are they multiplying ?

PB: Multiplying, yes, they are.

CE: Is it a small animal ?

PB: Yes it's a small animal, weighs about 350 pounds. They don't look small when you see them and they have enormous racks, the nails. But the truth is that they could put those animals without this drift fence on all the major flats facing the ocean around Drake's Bay and Tule elk historically don't go up over hills and they don't go through forests and in consequence they would stay there and they would probably do very well. The whole seashore has been surveyed for forage and herbs for the Tule elk and past ___?___. There's ample food for them and they wouldn't - - they wouldn't hurt the number of deer. They're both browsers and grazers - - or so are deer. But, this they sought not to do. I don't know why.

CE: We've interviewed over the last year several ranchers out there and their biggest complaint is people walk through and leave the gates open. But of course that's a problem on any ranch.

PB: I assume that probably happens every so often - -

CE: In most cases they're satisfied, aren't they, with the arrangements given them ?

PB: They really are. In fact, the MALT [Marin Agricultural Land Trust] recently attended an annual meeting of the American Land Trust out here in Point Reyes Station, and it is quite certain that the industry, the dairy industry, for viability requires ranches, at least back on the seashore, to remain in dairying. Because without these ranches you're going to impact all the ranches in private property in the rest of the county. Because you have to have a milkshed of a certain size in order to support the industries which in turn make the milk industry possible.

CE: Well how do they envision that those dairies can continue if the ownership ceases upon the demise of whoever - - arrangements were made at the purchase of property ?

PB: It doesn't work that way.

CE: Doesn't it?

PB: No. These are fairly long term leases. The major problem that was brought up, and which I felt strongly about, was this - - The families who are dairying want to move the - - extend the leases for their children who want to stay in dairying. And yet they may have eight, ten, twelve years to run and consequently everything is up in the air, and they can't make the kind of investments they need to make to keep the ranch in good condition because the Feds haven't sat down to negotiate with them. Interestingly enough, John Sansing, who is the Director of the National Seashore, has the authority to negotiate at present and extend those leases and that's the next project I hope to be involved in. Because it makes no sense to keep this new generation on tenterhooks for ten or twelve years.

CE: And it would seem to me it would benefit everyone to have them continue on.

PB: There's no question because if you don't have grazing you have the whole area overrun with brush and so there's a very real ecological value having these dairy ranches. And at least so far, even though the national seashore is- - I guess next to the GGNRA [Golden Gate National Recreational Area] is the most heavily visited seashore in the country. Heavily visited national park in the country.

CE: Is that true?

PB: Yes. Almost everyone goes down the Bear Valley Trail or goes to the various beaches and in consequence a large part of the area, in fact, is something like the wilderness which is - - it's designated and forty percent of the seashore is now designated as wilderness - - forty, forty five percent. That was done by Phil Burton, and it means that there can be do development in that part of the seashore of any kind unless Congress changes the designation.

GM: I understand there's a great deal of the area that is absolutely overrun with brush. You see our ranch in Bolinas borders the National Seashore.

PB: Well, I wouldn't be an expert on that to be truthful. I would find that personally very doubtful, but I'm not saying it's not true. The areas I've walked over and that's most of the seashore don't seem to be all that brushy.

GM: You just walked on the roads?

PB: Oh no, I - -

GM: Through the brush ?

PB: Well that assumes there's brush. I'm not going to be caught in that trick.

GM: Well, there's manzenita ?

PB: Oh, I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is.

CE: It seems to me there's a whole generation of young people today that are crazy about this sort of recreation aren't they?

PB: Yes, there are - -

CE: Even more so than our generation ?

PB: Yes, I do think this.

CE: I mean we would go to Tahoe, we would go to the Sierra, but, right in their own backyard ! It's heart warming to see them get on the ferry, come over from the city and - - get over there in whatever way they can, by bus or what not, and really enjoy it.

PB: Shelly, my wife, was taking a walk on her birthday (I couldn't be there) around the lagoon, Abbots Lagoon, and she had gone to the eastern side of it with a friend. They both had binoculars, they were birding. And in that one walk she saw both the Bobcat and a mountain lion. And all the exotic axis and fallow deer who were schooling up as they do the weeks before the mating season - - it was a great trip. So those animals are still around and it's fun to know it.

CE: I wonder if you would comment - - I don't know if you were involved in the GGNRA legislation when you were in Sacramento, but - - When this vast piece of land so quickly thereafter comes this other thirty thousand acres. How did that come about?

PB: I can comment on that. Well, I can give you a clue. Mr. Packard was placed in charge of the re-election campaign of Nixon in Northern California. And he asked me and Bill Bagley, who was then assemblyman, to visit with him one morning at the Pacific Union Club in a little second floor bedroom. , And he said he knew nothing about campaigning, but he had agreed to do this chore for his good friend Mr. Nixon and wanted to know what issues would really help Northern California to go for Mr. Nixon. And Bill and I were ready on that score, and we immediately plumped for the Golden Gate National Recreational area, tying it in with the east coast Sandy Hook, where I had spent many years. And suggested if this could be done it would meet with enormous enthusiasm. I don't know - - and dare say he must have talked to fifty other people, so I have no illusion about it but I do recall when the President came back from China, opening China, he managed to get himself on to a ferry boat and take the press to the middle of San Francisco Bay and the- - I'm trying to think who owned the ferry boat - - They were sore as hell because they had to put out a red rug, and they had to pay for it, and I know they were very annoyed. And that was when he broke the news that he was going to recommend these two great entrances on the east and west coast. And that was a fine thing. I'd been working for years on a little headlands inc., which was a small organization trying to persuade the Federal Government to turn over to the state little parts of the headlands with particular reference to Kirby Cove. And we got some acreage turned over, and we were proud as peacocks. Then the Winter Ranch was at the very end of this headlands and there was a small little lighthouse on top of a bluff there which the Feds also released. And I had a friend, Libby Gadov's first husband, Frederick Smith IV, and we were walking over the land and she said, "Why, this ___?___ , its lovely ! Every bit of it should be federal property. You people are just nibbling at the fringes. Why don't you really go to work and do something?" And I must say it took all my control to not tell him, "Look, we've been working for 3, 4, 5 years on this, and what have you been doing?" But fortunately he was right and that's what happens. He was right. And he's a nice man, I'm very fond of him.

CE: But isn't it true, Peter, do you know of any other counties so close to a city the size of San Francisco that has so much natural beauty ?

PB: No. I think, however, there's one element that has to be included and that is the Golden Gate Bridge was not opened until 1937, the year I graduated from college.

CE: That's true. So that was a break - -

PB: That was a very real break. And in addition the commuting crescent, or the area from which commuting was feasible - -

CE: Corridor, sort of - -

PB: The corridor was indeed a corridor because of the ridge that runs, as we both know, right down the heart of the county, north and south, and northwest, southeast. So all of the area on the other side of the ridge was beyond commuting range.

CE: And these people, you talk to these ranchers here, they refer to all of this eastern side as "the people over the hill".

PB: That's right.

CE: And then they went shopping to Petaluma in the early days. They didn't go to San Rafael.

PB: Well, that's very true. And even today Tomales has to cadge almost surreptitiously a lot of its services from Sonoma County because the Civic Center is so far away and hardly knows that Tomales exists. So it's not such an old time thing; it's still going on. It's very remote. To get to Tomales is a chore, and to get from Tomales is a second chore.

CE: And there's a great philosophical difference about what kind of a county Marin is when you talk to people out there as to when you talk to them here.

PB: I think that's true. We've got to - - I think we've done pretty well when you consider, along with the totaling of acreage in state or in public ownership: state, federal and county and in each city, parks and the two water districts. And add to this something over 90,000 acres under the Williamson Act [ State private greenbelt legislation ] which can't be developed for an additional 10 years - - it's a rolling 10 years - - but - -

CE: Where is that land?

PB: It's all through the county. In fact, some of it is on the east side of Highway 101. All that open space very near St. Vincent's is a very large ranch under the Williamson Act. We had a lot of land in - - around Muir Beach under the Williamson Act, and most of it is scattered all through here. You see, before Proposition 13 [the initiative rolling back property tax rates ] there was tremendous advantage because if you went under the Williamson Act you'd be taxed in terms of the value of the land as open space, as you remember. Now, with the coming of Proposition 13 the inducement to agree not to develop your land for a minimum of 10 years doesn't carry with it the same rewards, because of the one percent limitation on taxing increases.

CE: I'd like to, if we could, Peter, divert a little bit to this Prop, 13. You had proposed some tax cutting alternatives, rather than adopting this Prop. 13.

PB: That's right.

CE: What were they, might I ask"

PB: Indeed you may. They're included in Senate Bill 1, which was the first bill introduced in the two year session, and the last bill enacted into law in that session. It took two years to get that bill into law. And what the bill did in brief, was to - - was to require - - was to find as a deferred property tax payable by the seller at the time of sale. And it was to represent 6 percent of the sales price. Now with property turning over once every 6 years - - now this is - -

CE: Is this the norm?

PB: This is residential properties, state wide. This would have brought in an enormous sum of money which would offset the annual property taxes of 5/6ths of the homes, the ones that hadn't been sold in that given year. In addition, it would be tax deductible in the State income tax. And we had Congress agreeable to making it tax deductible under the Federal law largely because it didn't affect their state income tax. It simply was a different way of collecting property taxes. And the total deductions would not have been increased. We did that and then we had some other - - We determined how long the surplus would last and still contribute to the reducing of the property taxes, and so we included some surplus moneys in the reduction of property taxes. And with other matters that get quite complex, it would have given property tax payers a larger reduction than Proposition 13 with no loss of revenue for services.

CE: Well what happened? The timing of the referendum or what?

PB: No. What happened was this. That the realtors caught up with that in the last committee on the Assembly side, the Ways and Means Committee, and caused that committee to strike the 6 percent sales tax. So it never was in a position to compete - -

CE: It just emasculated the whole plan.

PB: They emasculated it, and I was heart sick, but there was nothing I could do about it. They were more powerful than we were. So that was a great failure. Leo and I, Leo McCarthy and I, went all through the State arguing against [Prop.] 13 and in favor of Proposition 8, which SB1 would have implemented. And towards the last three weeks or so on one would listen. They'd hoot and cheer and howl so loudly that we were not able to speak at all, and that was quite and interesting experience. But Thirteen passed.

CE: But now look at the mess we're in.

PB: Yes, Everything that we said has come true with the single exception of the time frame within which it was to cone true. And that took longer than we thought because the surplus, the state surplus, was almost a billion and a half dollars more than we were told by the Department of Finance, which claimed they didn't know it.

CE: Well now, in the paper last week we had the Marin County budget. What is it - - $90,000,000 ? And they're going to be short - - state and federal funds ? And it's going to be another pinch. And I and Mrs. Martinelli, as you know, are interested in preserving the library. I wonder if we could just discuss that for a bit, because I believe very strongly in libraries. They have been a source of my education. It distresses me. When we had this Spring supervisor's meeting - - March or April, I forget which one you attended - - several people stood up. Sister Margarita, Dominican librarian for 40 years, spoke, as you may remember. Vera Schultz spoke. Do you remember?

PB: Oh, of course.

CE: You were there of course. I thought what she said was so fascinating. "Was it within your purview, Gentlemen, to arbitrarily remove those spaces that have been paid by the citizenry in a bond issue years ago?" And if you remember, Barbara Mirrowcut, red faced and turned to the County Library and - - you know, how can we save money if we have to reimburse you $700,000 if you relocate ? And then I remember you got up and if I can remember correctly you said something to the effect "The first move of totalitarian government is to close down libraries and access to free information.". Sort of what you said?

PB: Well I think so. It was actually - - I had a talk I gave at the dedication of the Novato Branch of the County Library, and it was too long - - even though it was only a page and a quarter. But I felt it was too long to use and so I paraphrased it briefly.

CE: And also you mentioned that out of the County budget = - - of approximately ninety million, is it?

PB: I don't recall.

CE: That's what the 1983-84 is. The library was only one million.

PB: I think that's true.

CE: And where'd the rationale about not providing for it? I wonder if you'd comment on this problem and what steps can be taken to insure - - safeguard and insure its future. As you may know, as a result of that hearing we've formed an ___?___ committee, and Vera Schultz is chairman of it. And we are working very hard to put on the ballot next year a tax override. The same time they did appoint, the Board of Supervisors, did agree to appoint a Library Commission, which we've never had in Marin before. And the value of that I think is if the public out there had known what a mess we were in financially, something would have been done before now.

PB: That may be.

CE: But what else do you think we can do?

PB: I think the single most permanent solution is a tax override, which divorces the library from the annual ups and downs of county financing. And libraries along with recreation have been the stepchildren of city and county budgets ever since Proposition 13. I think this can happen and as you know the actual cost per family even with an opportunity for growth is $10.00 per year in taxes. On the other hand, like all of these efforts, it's going to require a very real effort. And I think it has to be a sophisticated effort. And usually this means you have to raise a certain amount of money for it and - -

CE: We have been guided in part by the successful legislation the City of Berkeley has done. You know they raised money that way.

PB: Let me tell you what Tom Phae did, an old family friend. Tom ran my recall election for supervisor, and then - -

CE: I didn't know you went through one of those.

PB: I was the first successful race at that level in the history of the state - - to recall a supervisor.

CE: What year was this?

PB: Well, it was the first - - let me see, he had one year. J. Walter Blair his name was, nice man. He had one year of his four year term and then we recalled him. And that's the reason I have seven years instead of eight.

CE: Seven instead of eight. Were you representing a district? What number? Three?

PB: Three. And then I ran without opposition three years after. The only time I've ever been unopposed running for office. But getting back to the Hall of Justice, what Tom did was very clever, and I think deserves some consideration. [end of tape 1, side 2]

CE: And what might that consideration be?

PB: Well, what Tom did was this, he said "Look, pretty obviously all the environmentalists and conservationists and persons who admire Frank Lloyd Wright are going to work very hard and want to be in the forefront of this campaign to get this bond issue across for the Hall of Justice.

CE: Well, was Blair dragging his feet against it or what?

PB: Oh, Blair was long gone by that time.

CE: Oh, Okay.

PB: So Tom said "What we need to do is put the businessmen up front and we'll get prominent businessmen and get together a group of the leading members of the business community and we'll have a big luncheon. And we will tell them this is good business and that they must do it." And we got Fred Enemark and Fred told them in no uncertain terms. And so we fielded this lunch and they bought - - Now, that was the first thing and this - - because they might be conceived as the natural enemies of the Hall of Justice, but they weren't , they were right there. Now the second thing was to get all the environmentalists and conservationists and persons of that ilk to lay low - - talk to friends, but not get into the open because they'd steal the thunder of the business community, and it wouldn't work because you can't mix oil with water and it just wouldn't work. So we just kept singing their praises and they kept justifying by working like little ___?___ .So when the Hall of Justice came finally to an election it succeeded but only by about 200 votes or so of the total cast. But what we didn't realize was you can't, you can't fund the cost of a recount on a bond issue because if you lose and your the proponent of the recount you must pay the proportionate salary of the judge, of the clerk, the deputy. You have to rent the Court house and you have to pay for the proportionate cost of the County counsel. It's just become outrageous. So that's what stuck. And in fairness and in truth, Fred Enemark deserves an enormous amount of credit for it, which he was given at the time it was dedicated, and rightfully so. He was a very good person. He was always doing things I approved of.

CE: Well, you know you have just given us an idea because business - - there is a great wealth of government documents there in that reference center in that main library too. I think with the growth of business, whether it's the information - - Silicon Valley type of industry that moves into Marin County of what. There is this data available and they have need to have entree to it.

PB: Well that's true, but I wouldn't put it on that basis. What I would do is - - There are large numbers of companies who are anxious and willing to spend large sums of money probono, and - -

CE: I don't think I know what you mean by probono.

PB: For the public good.

CE: okay

PB: And we at the San Francisco Foundation run through all of the contributions in this area by Chevron. They're shocking in both amount and diversity. Now Firemen's Fund American is doing this same kind of thing. They're large enough to do it. They're very anxious to be thought of as good neighbors.

CE: Are they owned by American Express now?

PB: Yes. But they are run quite independently. They were bought by American Express largely to give them splendid cash flow from the premiums. Which worked out very well for all concerned.

CE: I remember when I was on the board of the Marin Cancer Society, McGraw Hill, come to think of it, the publishing house, was most generous.

PB: So I would think what you would want to do is to - - There's also a follow-the-leader syndrome among all of us, in every walk of life. If you have companies that are that large and that influential the others really want to get on. And very often you can work best through the bankers because everybody in the end has to have a banker. And the goodwill of the banker is the life blood of the industry. So there are lots of ways of doing this, and I would think that's not a bad way to go.

CE: Very good.

PB: And I think that - - There are an awful lot of persons in this county who are known as businessmen, but you turn the coin over and you find out that's what they do during the day, but they have all sorts of other interests. And if you think about big money and how it's used, as a rule you find it's supporting (as we know over in the city) San Francisco Opera, San Francisco Symphony, the San Francisco Ballet. I mean those are three well established ones - -

CE: The cultural things.

PB: Cultural things. Now I think tying it in with ___?___ that libraries are not for - - are for everybody. You know you've got to be careful with that, but I think you could do a lot of good with that. Another thing too which I found a little disappointing and that is that there was a feeling which I maintain to be an illusion, that the San Francisco Foundation was going to come up with a brand new library somewhere else on the Civic Center site. That's not going to happen and there's no reason to believe it should happen, in my opinion.

CE: Well, that was an idea put forth as perhaps an alternative if the tax override didn't go rather than try to give up the cause. That or perhaps go and seek another area.

PB: Of course as was pointed out, I think, at that meeting, if that area is vacated, the library area is vacated, and the library is moved elsewhere, then any time government wants to use a square foot of that vacated area, they have to pay the library. So that's either going to be vacant in per5petuity or else they're going to be paying a fortune to try and rerent the space and pay it to the library.

CE: Excellent.

PB: And that is true.

CE: Now you brought up a phrase: "in perpetuity". I'd like to ask you academically a question, having been a supervisor. In the many years that Mrs. Kent and I were traveling around the county we'd get through an interview and the families would bring out their albums and generously let me copy some photographs for the archives. Then they'd say over a drink or a cup of tea, "Is there any place we can give our papers to in Marin County We're sick of sending things to the California Historical Society and having it wind up in the basement, never used or displayed. And certainly the Bancroft Library has enough." Well, their resistance in perhaps giving it to the Marin Historical Society was that it's housed in that charming Victorian Gate House fire trap. So I, and Mrs. Kent in those early months and years, we felt we couldn't conscientiously say "Give it to the California Room, which is an archival depository of family papers." Dr. Stanley's papers are there, other people's and about 7,000 volumes on California and Marin. Until we could be assured that it would be always there. So, to make a long story short, a resolution was written, signed unanimously by the Board of Supervisors in 1978, and it has a number: number 74-78. And it says, as long as there is a free Marin County Library there shall be a California Room: signed, dated, sealed, the whole shmear - - is that going to always be true?

PB: I don't think one board can bind another.

CE: Well this is important to me because I have entree to give a collection of Marin memorabilia worth considerable amount of money - - appraised value - - and I - - This is a widow whose name I don't care to mention on this tape, but I have to be sure in my heart that if she makes this gesture and gives this collection which I'd love to have for this county, the Board of Supervisors will honor that resolution and be sure it's there. Right now the Anne Kent California room is without a librarian, no funds. I'm going to fight for it again on Thursday. We have a budget hearing. No money in the county library budget to staff that room. So that's why two years ago I raised $8,000.00 for the private sector and put a little money in it and got it revitalized. Now it's funded out of the general fund.

PB: Well, that merely reemphasizes the importance of the independent funding base in my opinion, mainly ___?___

CE: Well, I put the money - - First we gave it to the county and we established the Anne Kent Memorial Fund, and then you had to go through such rigmarole to get any ___?___ expenditures that they gave it back to me and I have it now in custody with ___?___ which is a group under separate bank account. We spent a few thousand dollars of it but - - I - -

PB: Well I'm not arguing the importance of what you did, I'm - - -

CE: No, but I mean - - you're telling me in a way then that you ___?___ in perpetuity then, you just - - -

PB: No, I can't think of anything - -

CE: In other words, if they decided, if this tax initiative didn't go through next year and they say "Well, you've had your chance ___?___ Committee, got to move it out of here, can't afford these spaces, got to take the Anne Kent Room with you wherever you go or we can't fund that - - "

PB: Well, they could do that perhaps. But there's something else. You know it's perfectly possible to put a tax override on the ballot without the supervisors approving it.

CE: Well, we're going to do it any way.

PB: Well, the point I'm making is if it didn't work the first time you can always try again.

CE: Well, the reason is we are - -

PB: As a rule, as a rule though I think I should say - - very often like reconsideration of a bill that you've lost on the floor of the Senate, it's warmed over food that never tastes as good the second time you bring it out.

CE: Well, we have an obligation to the Board. They have been gracious enough, if that's the word, to allow us to remain in the main library for one year instead of obliging the County Librarian, who really wanted us out of there. It was her decision to save money that way. They'd given us the grace to stay there another year and this ___?___ Committee worked it out under Vera Schultz' direction.

PB: Good old Vera! She's always in there fighting.

CE: She's an extraordinary woman. And you know one thing that impressed me when I interviewed her? She has this inner beauty if you will, this inner softness and patience, and I asked her toward the conclusion of the interview "To what did she attribute that?". And she thought for a moment and she said "You know I came form a little ranch in Nevada, and at our commencement in the Spring of 1920, Dr. Aurelia Reinhardt was our speaker. And she spoke at our tiny high school, and some of her remarks were addressed to the women, girls, young women. She said 'You know what's been accomplished for you this year? A great effort was the women's right to the vote.' And she said 'What are you going to do about it? Are you going to get involved and if you feel the cause is just, make a contribution?' She said 'I would hope you would. And its been a great sacrifice to many women.' And she said ' I want to caution you, whatever you do, don't do it at the cost of being ladies.'" Well, she said, "Every girl in that graduating class was so fired up! I went immediately to the University of Nevada and came on down to Cal where I met my husband." And she said "You know, when we moved and bought a little lot in Marin County, I think it was late '20s of early '30s, I don't recall, I soon discovered people in Marin are very supportive if you tell them all the facets of the problem and it's a worthwhile cause. It's got to be a worthwhile thing. They will support you. But you have to spread the word out to them." So she said, "Oh, and getting back to Dr. Reinhardt, she said, 'You'll have disappointments and you'll have setbacks, but consider them just setbacks momentarily. If the cause is just, continue, patiently to persevere.'"

PB: That's very true. I think persistence should be defined as patience with a purpose.

CE: Patience with a purpose - - I like that. Well, you know that's what we've done in a way to get the Board of Supervisors to pay attention to me. They were already to close us down. And we went up there and kept coming back and coming back. And wrote letters as you advised. Wrote letter to the editor, to the supervisors, and they got over 200 letters. You know, I guess nobody writes them much. And then the colleagues got together and said "Well, what are we going to do about this? I guess they don't want it closed."

PB: That's good.

CE: Well, that's our main project right now and somehow we're going to resolve it. Now, I want to touch briefly on a couple of other things. Do we have time? A little more?

PB: Sure.

CE: Okay. I know that you are in involved with the distribution of some of the Buck largess. Now we had the pleasure of talking with John Elliott Cook, who is an old friend of Mrs. Martinelli - - interesting gentleman. I live in Ross, and I just want to talk academically for a moment. I think - - We've interviewed several people, I don't think Marin County really knows about that woman much. I think they should know a little bit about her. I understand from Mrs. Kent that the Ross ladies didn't treat her so great when she was living in Ross. She appears from my distillation of data we've received to be a woman with sort of a masculine mind. Not much for small talk with ladies or whiling away time at the bridge tables.

PB: Go to the San Francisco Seminary. She was deeply involved with the seminary.

CE: Yes, I know that.

PB: She ___?___ seminarians. She followed them when they got to their first assignments and criticized their sermons and was very, very much involved. And there are still persons who remember her and knew her well.

CE: Well we did interview Joanne Berry who had been her personal secretary for the last five years. But as a neighbor of hers I'd just - - just think it would be nice if something would be named Beryl Buck. We started this little museum in Ross, in the town hall where the police moved out of, that's too tiny, but some day somewhere down the road I was hoping somebody would come up with something. We have the Louise Davies Hall, San Francisco, the Dorothy Chandler whatever it is in Los Angeles. Don't you think it would be nice to have and Dr. Leonard and Beryl Buck something in the county?

PB: Oh I think they should. I agree.

CE: Well somebody will come up with an idea I hope. And her home now has just been sold again.

PB: Has it?

CE: Yes, just been sold. We didn't talk very much, Peter, about your political career, but that would take much, much more time. Could we just close with - - I'd like to know what you're doing right now, since your retirement. Are you teaching a little or writing?

PB: I taught 2 quarters or - - undergraduates at Berkeley, a course called Legislative Process and was assigned a senior lecturer out of the graduate school of public policy at Berkeley, which is one of their graduate schools, and assisted there. I've given 3 times now a short course for Stewart Brand of the Whole Earth Catalog. Two hours a week for 4 successive weeks on the importance of local government, which was quite well attended.

CE: Where did you give those might I ask? Here?

PB: Well, I gave the first series in the Mill Valley library; the second series and the last series out at the forts, at Yosemite Institute.

CE: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.

PB: And I'll be doing that again. I'm a member of a number of environmental boards - - Marin Conservation League, League of Conservation Voters, The Sierra Club Foundation, The Friends of the River - -

CE: We didn't get into that wild river bit either.

PB: No, Planning and Conservation League, and I'm one of the two honorary chairmen of the Tuolomne River Preservation Trust, which I've been working very hard on. And so that keeps me somewhat busy. Since I left I chaired a statewide committee on Adult Education which met around the state, filed a report. And also they had a Citizen's Advisory Committee on the U. S. Forrest Service practices which involved ___?___ and wilderness, roadless areas and did that for Hughey Johnson, who was at the time Director of the Resources Agency. And that was an interesting assignment. And I have some talks here and there.

CE: Do you still practice law, sir?

PB: I haven't practiced law since two years before I left the Board of Supervisors.

CE: Wow! It's been awhile then.

PB: It's been a long time. I feel that it's a built-in conflict of interest practicing law and being in public life. And while it may be necessary, it's not desirable. And consequently it's all to easy to mix your political life with your private clients, and I chose not to do it.

CE: The BA [Bar Association] is meeting, I forget where, right presently deciding some ethical questions I understand before the bar. Have you been reading that?

PB: No.

CE: How much a lawyer should keep in confidence from his client out of loyalty to him where perhaps the loyalties or sacrifices of the public good are - - I don't know, something.

PB: Very complex. The most dramatic moment I had on that score was when a client rattles what he claimed were bullets over the telephone and said he was going down to shoot the judge, examiner and two witnesses in the case we were involved in. And he was just - - just bizarre enough so that I had a problem of determining whether to keep this in confidence or breach the confidence, the attorney -client privilege, by going to the District Attorney and trying to make sure he didn't kill anyone. And I took the latter course, which was difficult because we were trying to get him to sea as a radio operator before the National Labor Relations Board, and the Radio Operator's Union was defending on the basis that he was unstable. And, of course , if this came out in the hearing it would do me in. And they tried - - the District Attorney was Tom Lynch was subpoenaed to come to the hearing and he claimed he had a right to disclose this to the Examiner. I had a U. S. Supreme Court decision right on point and I evoked the defense of the stool pigeon. While I was an attorney, I was also a stool pigeon when I talked about my client and that is guarded with confidentiality. So Lynch took a recess, read the opinion and decided he was wrong. But, those questions arise.

CE: In concluding our little visit today - - Conservation - - I talked with Grace and Teddy Wellman, it's a daily watch, isn't it? A weekly watch. You can't sit on your laurels for what has been accomplished from point A to point - - whatever point we are at now, can we?

PB: No, you can't. And everything is always at risk that's been done. It's never permanent; it can always be changed. And there's an enormous amount of selfish interest and large profits in hurling the environmentalists back from the coastline, for example.

CE: Hurling back! I love that.

PB: Well - - or getting all the water in the Sacramento River sent south.

CE: How do you think - - I know you were fighting to oppose that peripheral canal. What do you think - - Is that going to come up again?

PB: For sure.

CE: For sure - - soon? Oh dear - -

PB: Not too soon. They're going to be regrouping. It'll take a little while, but they'll come back. And they've got a very favorable governor now too. Almost anything they want to do, he's perfectly willing to do. Of course, fortunately he can't do it, but he will have some influence and of course the legislature is not environmentally oriented at all right now - - any more than Washington. We're facing great odds. But here's one thing that I find very interesting, that despite enormous efforts to beat back or unleash the wild ___?___ rivers for more water and the efforts to do away with the coastal act and restore the coast to the developers, the anxious desire to allow needless timbering in very sensitive areas, these efforts are failing. And when you realize that - - well, when you think of the Environmental Protection Agency, which I'm sure was at the most a nuisance to the President, and what a bomb exploded when the truth was out that nothing was happening and that they were making deals which were quite unsavory with - - with chemicals - -

CE: Toxic waste.

PB: Toxic waste. So I think in many ways the environmental group is looked upon as something of a porcupine by persons who would like to do away with it. They get filled with quills everytime they take the polls on clean air and pure water which have been running, you know, 80 to 85 percent in favor of it during this entire period of time when the administration quite clearly could care less. So there's some comfort in that. But you can't take - -

CE: Well we have again a whole generation of young people who are so savvy and willing and able to fight for these things.

PB: That's right.

CE: They get involved.

PB: Yes. I think the whole purpose of the environmental movement should be to put the new wine in the old bottles. There are too many old bottles that are getting pretty empty. And actually the presumption is that wine improves with age, but that's not true of all wines as I found out to my - - My son-in-law - - I have a bit of a cellar down here and I paid little attention to it. My son-in-law is one of the state's experts on wine, and I called him up and read him over the telephone, you know, the stories about certain wines. He'd say, "Well, you'd better drink that right away." And finally he lost patience, he said "Well, that's five years over the hill. Throw it out." And so that's true with, I guess, people. They - - it doesn't mean as we grow older we are useless - -

CE: Or less interested.

PB: Or less interested.

CE: You're like an old war horse though. I mean you fought many battles. You're entitled to a little peace. Is that one reason you picked this nice spot?

PB: Well, yes. I go over the hill a great deal, but I love this. Yes.

CE: But this is - - You have an acre or more here?

PB: About that. But it's nicely laid out so that we - -

CE: And it's so private!

PB: Our friend next door - -

CE: You've got a neighbor there ?

PB: Oh, you can't see him. But he has a little summer house. He comes out during the summer. He's a very well known professor of criminology at Boalt Hall in Berkeley, but he has 10.5 acres, so that gives us a lot of comfort on that side.

CE: Good cushion, yes.

PB: Yes, it's a good cushion. That's all right, we have pretty good zoning out here now.

CE: Did you say you are working for the conservation of the Tuolumne River?

PB: Indeed, yes. I sent a 6 page letter to Pete Wilson, and I talked with Sally ___?___, which is a tough person in California, for about two and a half hours and briefed her.

CE: Is she savvy to the problem?

PB: Oh, she's an exceptional good girl, woman, and she's - - I've known her for years. And she's, I think to the extent possible, eager to see 83 miles preserved. But, of course, she's obviously - - she takes her orders from people and then she's very loyal; that's how she got where she is.

CE: He just got married, didn't he?

PB: Yes he did.

CE: He should be a happy man.

PB: You mean permanently, temporarily, in between?

CE: Well, well, that's when you - -

PB: Well we've done our best. I got all the - - I suggested that we get all the contributors to his campaign, who had contributed $200.00 or more, and find out who knew which of them and how many could be persuaded to write in urging him to save the Tuolumne. And we got a pretty potent list of supporters from that.

CE: Is this larger than a state action? Does this involve the federal government?

PB: Oh, it is the federal government.

CE: Is the federal government - - I beg your pardon - - I didn't understand.

PB: Well, it is, and it involves two levels. One is the wilderness area which is in and around the 83 miles, and the other is putting that 83 miles of Tuolumne into the National Wild Lands Act, land they are somewhat separate. The Turlock and Modesto have two irrigation districts anxious to build the ___?___ dam, which would do away with all of this are essentially. San Francisco, however , has withdrawn from that by a unanimous vote of its board, urging wild state river status for that 83 miles. Of course they got their - -

CE: Well, they've already got theirs, haven't they? the Hetch Hetchy Reservoir. Which then goes through Yosemite and comes out of Yosemite and moves on to about 83 more miles at which pint they have dams and - - the Turlock and Modesto district. Now all of the water of the Tuolumne is used up - - about - - I forget the exact percentage, I think it's about 80 percent of the water is used in the Bay area, not just for San Francisco. Throughout - - and 200,000 acres of agricultural land are irrigated with Tuolumne River water at the end of the run. And all we are trying to do is save the 83 miles in between. Now some of this 83 miles is within the Yosemite National Park, so it is not threatened, but a large part of it is. and the tributaries coming into this stretch, one of them has a wild trout program on it; it is marvelous fishing. And there are a number of camps as you know - - Berkeley and so forth.

GM: ___?___

CE: She's done some horseback riding over that, haven't you?

GM: Yes.

PB: it's lovely country

GM: Oh, just beautiful, just beautiful.

PB: Just beautiful. So we're working very hard and Pete Wilson apparently is the key to it.

CE: is that right?

PB: Yes.

CE: What about the Melones Dam - - is that?

PB: That's happened.

CE: That is - - That is there?

PB: Yes and - - the Stanislaus flooding - - all the way

CE: Don Pedro is already in. Has that been raised - Lake Don Pedro?

PB: I don't know. We had a long fight on the Stanislaus. I fought that for years and years and years. And then Warm Springs Dam just to the north of us in Sonoma County. We fought that for years too. That was a wicked Corps of Engineers project. Most of those can't meet cost-benefit ratio. In other words, the benefits are less than the cost over time.

CE: Water is an important political thing too, isn't it? Sometimes, - - I mean - -

PB: Of course.

CE: Mrs. Kent was so into water ! I guess her husband was on the Marin Water District when it was founded, along with Dr. Leo Stanley, wasn't it? But we'd be out driving in her old Packard and she'd see somebody - - see running water down the road or instead of using a broom, and she'd stop the car and say "What are you doing?". "Well, those lakes are full." And she'd say "You know why those lakes are full ? Because they're emptying it from this lake and into that lake, and we haven't had rain."

PB: Did you come out here by Nicasio reservoir?

CE: Not today.

PB: Because that was absolutely dry in the two year drought.

CE: Absolutely.

PB: There was nothing there.

CE: Well they raised Kent Lake, didn't they - - 40 feet?

PB: Peter's dam, yes, they've raised that much to the disgust of a large number of us persons who - -

CE: Why?

PB: Well, Lagunitas Creek had quite a run of silver salmon and steelhead, and they're not permitting releases properly down that. Either they claim they can't afford it - - But all of the water they have impounded is actually part of our watershed on the west and its all going to the east side. And you'd think they'd let some of the water out. And they forgot - - Fish and Game forgot to get releases for when the Nicasio reservoir was constructed, so there are no releases from that.

CE: Who makes these determinations: the Board of the Marin Municipal Water District?

PB: The State Water Resources Control Board should make them, and had done so in the past. They're a pretty good board. No, they're not free agents, and at present there are negotiations going forward with the state which seemed to have been settled amicably, and they're going to have to make releases. Whether they'll cry they can't afford it, but they'll be forced to. Because you see, it goes beyond just the steelhead and salmon. Tomales Bay is silting up because we're not getting the flushing flows from Walker Creek or from Lagunitas.

CE: Where's Walker?

PB: Near Sulajoule dam.

CE: Where's Sulajoule dam?

PB: It's about 13 miles away from Tomales Bay up the Chileno Valley. I'm rather sure. I've never been there myself. Now they've got a big project there to restore Walker Creek all the way to Tomales Bay so that it will have its old run again of steelhead and salmon. The only thing we have coming in here are herring, and they - - They come in late December and early January. There's a good deal of fishing for herring. I put a bill into law which limited them from taking too many. It took 4 days to get that bill through, then signed by the governor. It was an emergency bill.

CE: Four days you got it done?

PB: Yes that was the shortest time I ever - - We waived everything, including the American flag. Ships came from everywhere to pick up these herring.

CE: And the Japanese especially.

PB: Exactly right because of - - well, it's known as Kozzi Moke, which is a very fancy dish and its made from the roe of herring. And they've had their herring fisheries fail, so they're willing to pay almost anything for it.

CE: To get it, yes?

PB: It's criminal.

CE: It was criminal.

CE: Are you, by any chance, going to write your memoirs?

PB: Oh no !

CE: Are you going to leave your papers to Sacramento or Berkeley or - - probably a combination or - - state library, perhaps?

PB: They're really not that valuable or important. I've got some left over - -

CE: I think you're too close to it.

PB: Some left over from those ___?___

CE: Environmental impact reports and sort of things.

PB: Well the listing of the bills that I got through.

CE: Introduced that many bills?

PB: Over 8 years.

CE: How many are we talking about?

PB: How many?

CE: A couple of hundred?

PB: Oh, more than that.

CE: And of all those bills, Peter, which one delights you the most? Is that the one that you spoke of earlier?

PB: No. The one that delighted me the most was the one I got into law and it wasn't a bill. It was a giant concurrent resolution of the Assembly and Senate under which for the first time all committees were required to vote, not by voice vote, but by calling the roll.

CE: OH, so you'd have to be there.

PB: You'd not only have to be there, but they'd have to be - - See what happened was that the chairman of these committees had immense power. And the reason they had so much power is that when the bill was ready to be voted, they said ayes and then some people talked and the committee members and they said nays and some talk. Now some people would aye, and then they'd vote no and some people would just move their mouths and some people wouldn't vote at all. And so the whole thing- - And no records were kept of these votes. And with a large committee no one could challenge the chairman because nobody - - The reporters stood up to see who voted, but they never could find out and there were no records kept. So I got roll calls called in every committee in the Assembly and Senate, and the record kept and published once a week in our journals, who voted what.

CE: Well, this made the constituents unhappy didn't it?

PB: Well it was a big reform. What happened was - -

CE: I bet you had a great deal of opposition.

PB: Well, I started with the Senate Rules Committee which has to determine whether a resolution gets to the floor for a vote or not. And AI was very recent in the Senate and knew that I didn't have the clout, so I put this in and then when we had the hearing before the Senate Rules Committee I got 3 senior Republican Senators and 3 Democratic Senators to argue in favor of it. And I sat in the audience. And that made the 5 members of the Senate Rules Committee so Goddamn mad they said they were going to teach him a lesson,, and so they decided to put it out right down to the Senate floor where it would be overwhelmingly defeated. But they forgot one thing; they forgot that the author has the right to determine the hearing date. And I wouldn't have a hearing date until we got the media churned up. We had radio and television and newspapers and editorials and people screaming and crying. So finally when we had it before the Senate floor, nobody dared vote against it. And I remember Ralph Dills, who was one of the biggest crooks out there (he still is) Ralph Dills from Pasadena. He was originally ___?___ in with the gamblers into Yosemite. Anyway Ralph Dills starting out and he lifted his microphone and he ___?___ against this for about 2 minutes and finally he stopped and he said "But I guess I'll have to vote for it." and sat down.

CE: Oh, no !

PB: Yes. So he got everybody - - and so that happened and that really made an enormous difference because otherwise - -

CE: Well it eroded the power of some of these special committees and ___?___.

PB: And furthermore it gave everybody an opportunity to know how their representative voted and by far the most important votes are made in committee, because when you get to the floor usually about 85 to 90 percent of all bills off the floor - - I mean they've been heard by the committee and they've gotten through the committee. The Fiscal Committee, they've gotten through that too. I sat on the Fiscal Committee for years. You know you have the Policy Committee and then the Fiscal Committee and by the time it gets to the floor it's in pretty good shape. Everybody figures its all right. But all sorts of games were being played, made me cross.

CE: That glass republican figure over there, is that from your office?

PB: This one?

CE: Yes.

PB: A little lady, who shall be nameless, who was alcoholic and - - actually she - - I was almost her guardian. Her first name was Wilma. She used to come in to my office at odd times with the strangest things and that was one thing she brought. She thought I ought to have a green elephant. Another time she came in and it really was very fortuitous because my son had a Scotty. And the Scotty had such ___?___ that we had to get rid of him, and my son was 7 or 8, you know. It was a terrible blow. He was weak and wailing and we all felt badly too; we loved the Scotty. So, about 2 days later I found - - all my ladies, my secretary and everybody giggling and roaring with laughter out in the anteroom and there was Wilma. She had a little puppy about like this - - he was a ___?___, you know, Keeshund. Darling little ball of fur. And what happened was she'd gone to Robinson's you know and she was half ___?____ and she fell in love with this. And then she got the little puppy and then she realized she couldn't keep the puppy; the apartment wouldn't let her have dogs. She sobered up a little bit and so she came cruising down to my office and she gave it to me.

CE: I'll know who I'll give it to.

PB: Well I must say I was pleased and I - - finally got rid of her. Then I was commuting by Greyhound bus and I had the bus that won't take dogs. So I had to break the heart of the bus driver who was a friend of a friend of ours. We just won't talk about this little bundle of fur, and I put him in a box and when I got home and then I had to explain it to my wife.

CE: Now what have you brought home?

PB: Now what have I brought home.

GM: She had to care for him.

PB: But she fell in love with him too. We had him for years and years and I used to go around with that ___?___, very dear dog.

CE: Well, Peter, this has been a delight. Before we leave, there are 5 cartoons framed on your study, and - -

PB: These are Renault, who was a great cartoonist.

CE: I see the one covers the refers roll call.

PB: Yes. I thought that was a rather clever one. That - - what's his name's bill - - Finest hour - - He was the head of the Environmental - - Charlie Warren.

CE: Warren bill to preserve prime agricultural land.

PB: Yes.

CE: Okay.

PB: This was my SD 1, you see - -

CE: Tax relief bill, okay.

PB: See all these amendments coming out - -

CE: Like bees coming out of the California bear.

PB: These are the wrong sort of bees that pestered the poor bear.

CE: And what's this over here.

PB: That's the - - I did something for the commuters.

CE: You were in commuters? No ___?___ Now what in the heck did you do?

PB: I forget, it was a long time ago. I was head of the Federation of Commuters.

CE: It looks like a carpool of diverse passengers. Now what's this with George Washington and the cherry tree?

PB: See the Senate Rules Committee, this is the one we were talking about, the secret committee voting and there's the State Legislator with his ___?___, I cannot tell a lie; I did it and I'm glad.

CE: That's clever.

PB: This was during redistricting and they - - was because I was so liberal, all of the Republicans wanted to get the hell out of the Senate. And Dymally, who was no better than he should be, tied in with GOP SenatorMarler, who was head of the Senate at the time. And it's in Reagan's office, because above - - I had my office directly above his by coincidence. And sacrifice of GOP Senator Marler seats - - see that carving ? "Are you sure Peter's upstairs in his office, Fred?"

CE: I love it. I love it.

PB: He's so wonderful, you know.

CE: What's that over here on this wall? You've got a lot of citations, I presume.

PB: Well there's Ronnie signing a bill of mine. ___?___ many more smiling occasions there weren't. Here's a letter from Jerry Brown when I left - -

CE: I will miss your elephants and the wonderful humor you brought to this - - that's nice.

PB: Here's Tom McCall whom I was very fond of, and saw something of in Oregon. Wonderful man !

CE: Oh yes. He's gone now isn't he?

PB: Died of cancer. This is from Alan Cranston when I left, nice little letter.

CE: 78.

PB: And this was Tom Keekal - - tried to help him a little bit. Here's Nixon who I returned some books to and he wrote. There were his books, so I had to do it.

CE: You had to, huh?

PB: Then I was head of Citizens for Eisenhower back in '52 for Marin County, and I got some nice letters from Dwight Eisenhower. The fact is that we had more voters go to the polls, higher percentage of registered voters go to the polls in that '52 election than any county in the United States. Ninety three percent voted, of the registered voters.

CE: Because of his popularity?

PB: Yes. I never gave the Democrats credit, but they were hot to trot for Adalai [Stephenson] who, as it turned out, I thought to be a wonderful man.

CE: Now here's a lively group. Is this your office staff?

PB: That's my office staff - -

CE: Around Jerry Brown.

PB: That was SB 1 - -

CE: SB 1 - - There he's signing it.

PB: ___?___ Karen Edson now is on the Energy Commission. He's just turned 30. Ken Finey and he's going to Boalt Hall. He's assistant manager of a great farm in Lost Hills; Del Ridge Farms. That's where it is.

CE: Oh, really.

PB: Yes. This girl is working for Bill Bagley on the Public Utilities Commission. Joan is working with Bunny Luchetta for Barry Keene now.

CE: You have an 9 member staff there?

PB: Oh yes. And I had a couple of others elsewhere.

CE: Now what have we got - - Here's Reagan signing - -

PB: Oh yes. That's SB 107. That's Joe ___?___. He's head of California Trout even though Ike Livermore was head of the Resources Agency then. And that's sort of the official welcoming How-do-you-do from Reagan when I got in - -

CE: Oh, and you got one from --

PB: Gerald Ford.

CE: Gerald Ford.

PB: Yes. And this is American Civil Liberties Union - - California Radiological Society - - I talked to them one year down South. Marin Community College.

CE: These are beautiful plaques. Outstanding leadership in the protection of nature including landmark legislation. The preservation, restoration of the ___?___, 1976. Department of Water Resources certificate of commendation given to Senator Peter Behr.

PB: OH, it's crap. Well you know it's a long time ago.

CE: 1970 to 1978.

PB: Long time ago. This is the Golden Trout Award from the California Trout which I was pleased to get. And then I got ___?___ Environmental legislator of the year - whatever that year - - it was '72.

CE: Well the members of the Senate gave you that beautiful - -

PB: Oh. that was because during my first four years I had - - I had Marin, Napa and Sonoma counties and those were the - - Napa - - the Mexican-American Association and they gave me that because I helped them - -

CE: Great !

PB: This is the usual resolution they stuff you with when you leave.

CE: And his retirement - -

PB: Yes. They say nice things about everybody, so it doesn't mean much.

CE: There are some interesting things here.

PB: I got that from a friend of my daughter Trudy, who worked with the Peace Corps in Africa and brought that back as a present.

CE: I love that photograph of Lincoln.

PB: Yes, this is very nice isn't it? A photographer up there took a fancy to me and photographed the original of this which is in the Capitol Building.

CE: The Capitol - -

PB: Yes, and he framed it and gave it to me, which I thought was pretty nice.

CE: Lincoln looks absolutely handsome there, doesn't he?

PB: Yes he does, brooding, but handsome.

CE: Well, Peter, wait a minute Let's call this a day. And I certainly thank you for your generosity.